What is the Rarest WW II Canadian Battle Dress?

Some observations. Second World War tunics have been the subject of "mythologizing" of recent. Ebay and auction listings and some vendors repeatedly say "D-Day" tunic, or "front line tunic", or "salty" (implying wear at the front) etc. This is basically bunk. Front line tunics were withdrawn and destroyed or ragged. They were dirty, damaged, or contaminated. For health reasons, a lesson learned from the FWW, the tunics were frequently replaced. So the tunics that we see are (with the rare exception) the tunics the soldiers came home with. And these were relatively newly issued. The date stamp was/is somewhat irrelevant. A 1942 tunic may have been in stores for months, maybe even longer before being issued. Or the soldier may have taken his 1940 issue BD and have had it dressed up as his best "parade" BD. But, soldiers had two tunics, one his best BD, and a working BD. Best BD were reserved for special parades and leave. They were stored in the soldier's kit bag when the unit went into front line service. It seems the working BD have become the "at the Front" tunics. Because they show some wear and tear, they "must have been in the field". Well, yes, BUT, even after the war ended, soldiers still trained, had fatigue duties, work parties etc, etc. These tunics would show everyday use. That doesn't mean fighting service.
Prices have spiralled upwards very quickly, but SWW Canadian tunics should be carefully analyzed before laying out any money. These tunics are really only the sum of the parts, yet some collectors have been pushing these tunics to amazing prices. On top of this, a spate of re-constructed tunics have made their way on the market. Some are obviously reconstructions, others are very difficult to spot. If one is to put out a lot of money on a SWW tunic, it would be prudent to have an iron clad provenance.
For example, I have a mint 1944 dated battle dress blouse in my closet, and I have a many printed and embroidered titles and formation patches in my traders. If I wanted I could easily put together an "authentically" patched tunic to any number of Canadian SWW units. So, why is it that a Linc & Winks 4 CAD tunic is worth $400, while the component parts are only worth about $100???
An additional consideration. There was a large home defence force which consisted of regiments which only served in Canada, and also 3rd Bns of regiments which had a battalion serving overseas. The home defence bn's were entitled to wear coloured embroidered titles. It is possible to find Black Watch, Queen's Own Rifles, Regina Rifles and other regiments, with patched tunics that represented home defence service. They all had battalions that only served in Canada. These tunics may not have had formation patches. (There is currently a QOR SWW era tunic on ebay. No formation patches. So, is it a 3 CID tunic, or a home defence tunic?) Regimental dress was the same, either in Canada or overseas. Sorry for the rant, but it seems a lot of collecting is not based on research or understanding the artifacts that are made available. Greed, fraud and mis-representation have become far too common.
Back to rarity. Another contender for the home forces scare tunics would be any tunic patched to either No 1 or No 2 Canadian Army Course. No 1 would be far scarcer, as it was only about 1/10th the enrolment of No 2.

Bill wrote:Some observations. Second World War tunics have been the subject of "mythologizing" of recent. Ebay and auction listings and some vendors repeatedly say "D-Day" tunic, or "front line tunic", or "salty" (implying wear at the front) etc. This is basically bunk. Front line tunics were withdrawn and destroyed or ragged. They were dirty, damaged, or contaminated. For health reasons, a lesson learned from the FWW, the tunics were frequently replaced. So the tunics that we see are (with the rare exception) the tunics the soldiers came home with. And these were relatively newly issued. The date stamp was/is somewhat irrelevant. A 1942 tunic may have been in stores for months, maybe even longer before being issued. Or the soldier may have taken his 1940 issue BD and have had it dressed up as his best "parade" BD. But, soldiers had two tunics, one his best BD, and a working BD. Best BD were reserved for special parades and leave. They were stored in the soldier's kit bag when the unit went into front line service. It seems the working BD have become the "at the Front" tunics. Because they show some wear and tear, they "must have been in the field". Well, yes, BUT, even after the war ended, soldiers still trained, had fatigue duties, work parties etc, etc. These tunics would show everyday use. That doesn't mean fighting service.
Prices have spiralled upwards very quickly, but SWW Canadian tunics should be carefully analyzed before laying out any money. These tunics are really only the sum of the parts, yet some collectors have been pushing these tunics to amazing prices. On top of this, a spate of re-constructed tunics have made their way on the market. Some are obviously reconstructions, others are very difficult to spot. If one is to put out a lot of money on a SWW tunic, it would be prudent to have an iron clad provenance.
For example, I have a mint 1944 dated battle dress blouse in my closet, and I have a many printed and embroidered titles and formation patches in my traders. If I wanted I could easily put together an "authentically" patched tunic to any number of Canadian SWW units. So, why is it that a Linc & Winks 4 CAD tunic is worth $400, while the component parts are only worth about $100???
An additional consideration. There was a large home defence force which consisted of regiments which only served in Canada, and also 3rd Bns of regiments which had a battalion serving overseas. The home defence bn's were entitled to wear coloured embroidered titles. It is possible to find Black Watch, Queen's Own Rifles, Regina Rifles and other regiments, with patched tunics that represented home defence service. They all had battalions that only served in Canada. These tunics may not have had formation patches. (There is currently a QOR SWW era tunic on ebay. No formation patches. So, is it a 3 CID tunic, or a home defence tunic?) Regimental dress was the same, either in Canada or overseas. Sorry for the rant, but it seems a lot of collecting is not based on research or understanding the artifacts that are made available. Greed, fraud and mis-representation have become far too common.
Back to rarity. Another contender for the home forces scare tunics would be any tunic patched to either No 1 or No 2 Canadian Army Course. No 1 would be far scarcer, as it was only about 1/10th the enrolment of No 2.

Well said Bill.

Bill wrote:Some observations. Second World War tunics have been the subject of "mythologizing" of recent. Ebay and auction listings and some vendors repeatedly say "D-Day" tunic, or "front line tunic", or "salty" (implying wear at the front) etc. This is basically bunk. Front line tunics were withdrawn and destroyed or ragged. They were dirty, damaged, or contaminated. For health reasons, a lesson learned from the FWW, the tunics were frequently replaced. So the tunics that we see are (with the rare exception) the tunics the soldiers came home with. And these were relatively newly issued. The date stamp was/is somewhat irrelevant. A 1942 tunic may have been in stores for months, maybe even longer before being issued. Or the soldier may have taken his 1940 issue BD and have had it dressed up as his best "parade" BD. But, soldiers had two tunics, one his best BD, and a working BD. Best BD were reserved for special parades and leave. They were stored in the soldier's kit bag when the unit went into front line service. It seems the working BD have become the "at the Front" tunics. Because they show some wear and tear, they "must have been in the field". Well, yes, BUT, even after the war ended, soldiers still trained, had fatigue duties, work parties etc, etc. These tunics would show everyday use. That doesn't mean fighting service.
Prices have spiralled upwards very quickly, but SWW Canadian tunics should be carefully analyzed before laying out any money. These tunics are really only the sum of the parts, yet some collectors have been pushing these tunics to amazing prices. On top of this, a spate of re-constructed tunics have made their way on the market. Some are obviously reconstructions, others are very difficult to spot. If one is to put out a lot of money on a SWW tunic, it would be prudent to have an iron clad provenance.
For example, I have a mint 1944 dated battle dress blouse in my closet, and I have a many printed and embroidered titles and formation patches in my traders. If I wanted I could easily put together an "authentically" patched tunic to any number of Canadian SWW units. So, why is it that a Linc & Winks 4 CAD tunic is worth $400, while the component parts are only worth about $100???
An additional consideration. There was a large home defence force which consisted of regiments which only served in Canada, and also 3rd Bns of regiments which had a battalion serving overseas. The home defence bn's were entitled to wear coloured embroidered titles. It is possible to find Black Watch, Queen's Own Rifles, Regina Rifles and other regiments, with patched tunics that represented home defence service. They all had battalions that only served in Canada. These tunics may not have had formation patches. (There is currently a QOR SWW era tunic on ebay. No formation patches. So, is it a 3 CID tunic, or a home defence tunic?) Regimental dress was the same, either in Canada or overseas. Sorry for the rant, but it seems a lot of collecting is not based on research or understanding the artifacts that are made available. Greed, fraud and mis-representation have become far too common.
Back to rarity. Another contender for the home forces scare tunics would be any tunic patched to either No 1 or No 2 Canadian Army Course. No 1 would be far scarcer, as it was only about 1/10th the enrolment of No 2.

Excellent post!

The CWM has quite a collection of CANLAON BDs.

How many CANLOAN BDs are known to be in private collections?

Hi Adam, I have no idea about an answer to your question, but your post brings another question to mind. Does the CWM have a complete collection of Second World War Canadian army BD? The Canloan are well represented, but are other units?

What would be considered a complete collection of Canadian WWII BD?

Ed, I would think an original bd for each of the overseas regiments, (infantry and artillery), plus one from each corps/formation. Eg RCOC First Cdn Army, RCAMC, First Cdn Army. Probably an impossible goal, and fraught with problems over definitions of what is a "different unit" and what constitutes "complete". Time period is another consideration. Patched tunics to 2 CID pre September 1942 would be exceedingly rare, if they even exist. And this doesn't even touch on the home defence forces.
Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. There is an extensive collection of Canloan tunics. Does the CWM have a representative and comprehensive collection of the Canadian army active service uniforms as well?

Are we talking Army alone or RCAF and RCN BD?

I am going to go out on a limb and speculate that surviving fully badged BD are from those units, either in Canada or overseas which were in existance in 1945 and reflect the badging practices at that time. I would be very surprised if any BD from the Dieppe Raid have survived or were saved.

The CWM mandate should (does?) include BD for all services.
I was trying to think the circumstances/situation that would result in a Dieppe era BD surviving. The only thing I can come up with is a fellow that was de-mobilized/discharged in 1942 up to or immediately after Dieppe, and came back to Canada.

In regard to the CANLOAN BDs at the CWM, Ed is probably right when he says the "surviving fully badged BD are from those units, either in Canada or overseas which were in existance in 1945 and reflect the badging practices at that time."

I know of several museums which have extensive uniform and helmet collections tucked away in their storage facilities. Who knows what survives in these collections.

I always ask myself two questions, Is it possible and Is it probable?

Is it possible a Dieppe BD exists?, yes. Is it probable a Dieppe BD exists?, no. There is one more possibility which we need to consider. A civilian in Dieppe may have picked up/acquired a BD after the raid and kept it. Such a BD could be in a French collection which we don't know about. I know of several helmets from the raid which are in private collections.



Wounded Canadians captured during the Dieppe Raid (Operation Jubilee), August 1942.

My original question "What is the Rarest WW II Canadian Battle Dress?" doesn't specify Army BDs. Even though it might be opening a Pandora's Box, would should probably include RCAF and RCN BDs. I know very little about RCAF and RCN battle dress, and other members of the forum will have weigh in on this subject.

No longer in my collection but a blue BD owned and worn by a Canadian RCNVR Lieutenant who was a pilot in the Fleet Air Arm and served on the Formidable with Hammy Grey VC. He went on to win the DSC. Nothing special to the BD other than his rank (RCNVR boards with string attachments) and his FAA wings worn on the left breast.
Clive

Bill wrote:Hi Adam, I have no idea about an answer to your question, but your post brings another question to mind. Does the CWM have a complete collection of Second World War Canadian army BD? The Canloan are well represented, but are other units?

I don't see this as being their mandate. To own one of each unit would be nice but who has the room? There would be hundreds of BD which differ only in the badging. If you take into account the different badge regimes in the SWW you would multiply this total by 2-3. Then, if you do it for BD why not Service Dress? Then, if you do it for the SWW then you must do it for the FWW, Victorian Militia, Postwar, etc.. There would be no end to it.

C.

Click on the link below to see a Royal Canadian Beach Commando BD:

http://www.warmuseum.ca/cwm/exhibitions/navy/objects_photos_search-e.aspx?section=4-B&id=52&page=2

Here is the history of the BD:

Royal Canadian Navy Beach Commando Battle Dress Blouse
This battle dress blouse belonged to Lieutenant Dudley Rayburn, a beachmaster with the Royal Canadian Navy's Beach Commando "W".

Created in early 1944, Beach Commando "W" went to France in early July 1944. Rayburn, a naval reservist since his youth in the 1920s, was a beachmaster who oversaw operations on a sector of Juno Beach. The left sleeve of his battle dress blouse carries "Canada" and "Commando" flashes (top). A Combined Operations patch (bottom) with an anchor, sub-machine gun, and eagle represent the navy, army, and air force operating together.

http://www.canuck.freehosting.net/colourphotos.htm



Three soldiers of the newly formed Berlin Battalion in 1945. Fusilier Desfosses (Les Fusilier Mont Royal), Private Max DeForest (Loyal Edmonton Regiment) and Private Bob Jane (Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada) with a signboard showing the unit markings of their respective units, all of whom contributed to this occupation battalion. The photo shows the subtle differences in shades of the various Battle Dress garments; proof positive that no two uniform pieces are ever truly alike.
(Public Archives of Canada via ED STOREY)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/clowesey/2605241152/



Lieutenant John Hughe (Canada) Battle Dress

Although it is held by the CWM, I would be highly suspecious of this RCN Beach Commando BD. The RCN Beach Command were issued clothing from British stores and from the large collection of imagery that I have, their BD was of British manufacture and not not Canadian. Secondly, surviving badged WWII Canadian Army BD are garments that the soldier wore home and was demobilized in and since RCN Beach Commando 'W' was disbanded in the late summer of 1944 and its members returned back to the RCN, then there would be no reason for member of this unit have a set of Canadian BD all tarted up for wear home.

The 2000 acquisition date and the fact that this rather pristine Canadian BD is badged RCN Commando, but missing the all-important RCN rank, leads me to believe that this was put together years after thw war by or for a Veteran of this unit and possibly following his death was donated to the museum.

The trouble with the on line selection of RCN artefacts is that the captions have been dumbed down and there is more empasis placed on naming the owner then an acedemic study of the garment and its components. The potential of electronic media is barely being exploited for in the case of this RCN Beach Commando tunic there could have been close-up detail images of the insigna and the garment label, a few archival images of the RCN Beach Commando wearing BD and a short history of the unit and its post D-Day activities on JUNO Beach. With this example all we get is one image of the tunic and a short, near useless blurb on the apparent owner and the insigna. Frankly, I would expect more from a national level military museum, but as well all know VCs and war art are the only artefacts that matter.

Thanks Ed for your input on the RCN Beach Commando BD.

Even though Newfoundland joined Canada in 1949, I think there BDs should be part of this thread.

There was a Newfoundland Battledress from the 57th Nfld Hvy Regt RA (Later 166th Nfld Fd Regt RA) which was recently on ebay, to a British unit member not originally from Newfoundland.

http://www.staffshomeguard.co.uk/DotherReminiscences25staffshg.htm

Bill, it's my understanding the Newfoundland Overseas Forest Unit and the 3rd Inverness (Newfoundland) Battalion [a Home Guard unit] wore BDs. Do you know what insignia they would have worn on their BDs?

"Louis Walsh, as Cpl. L. A. Walsh, HQ Coy., was selected to represent the Battalion at the national Home Guard stand-down parade in London on Sunday December 3rd 1944. This honour was shared with two comrades, Cpl. Les Styles, "B" Coy. and L/Cpl. H. Wheeler, "A" Coy. These are thought to be the men (below) standing on either side of Louis that weekend somewhere in central London, in front of some government offices which appear to have a Newfoundland association - and which also indicate the general grubbiness of London after five years of war."

Not to sound negative, but again I would also suspect this BD as having been made up. I have not studied the 57th Nfld Hvy Regt RA (Later 166th Nfld Fd Regt RA) nor seen this example in person but my gut tells me that this is a badged up Canadian BD tunic when I think it should be of British manaufacture. Again, a good look at the shoulder strap buttons or the label would help in this case.

As well, when the British Army demobilized the indivdual soldiers were required to hand in their clothing and equipment in return for a demobilization suit. So if this was the case as well for the Newfoundland Heavy Regiment RA, then why would this example have survived?

Food for thought.

These RCN BD would certainly rank as rare and desirable. First, a Beach Master at Kiska and a full Commander at that. Note that he does not wear 'Canada' titles. Second, a group of RCN Commandos.

Thanks for posting those great RCN BD photographs Clive.

Putting regulations asids, I have acquired several documented BDs directly from British veterans.

The following website provides some interesting information on RCN Commandos:

https://sites.google.com/site/historicalmaritimesociety/about-us/world-war-two-reenactment/r-n-commando-cobu-uniforms

-RCN Commandos

RCN Insignia follows that for the RN other than in national distinctions in the titles, either red on blue-black titles, one above reading ‘CANADA’ one below reading ‘COMMANDO’, seen stitched butted together to give the impression of a single title with Canada above Commando or with a roughly 1 ½” gap between the two titles. Another variation seen is a single title, white letters on a blue-black backing reading ‘ROYAL CANADIAN NAVY’.

-RCN Commandos

Canadian Navy Commandos wore both Canadian and British pattern BD, there is also photographic evidence of a motley mix of clothing being worn when off-duty or aboard ship waiting for landing operations including a rating wearing a blue (dyed?) battledress blouse and men wearing BD blouses with their rating’s bell-bottom trousers.

-RCN Commandos

Canadian Navy Commandos can be seen wearing the same headgear mentioned above but the Mk.III or ‘Turtle’ helmets seem to have been more widely issued and one photograph shows an officer with a US M1 helmet, all these helmets painted battleship grey. Helmet insignia in photos of RCN Commandos vary from names and Combined Operations insignia painted on the front to officer’s rank. Another US issue item seen in photos is the ubiquitous US Navy ‘pork pie’ white cotton cap, worn when off duty, in one photo apparently dyed grey or khaki.

-RCN Commandos

It is probable that Canadian Navy Commandos wore the same motley collection of footwear listed above but some also appear to have worn the Canadian ‘3rd Division’ boot, a taller boot with laces and a buckle fastening at the top and a hobnailed sole.



Insignia of a Leading Seaman, Quarters Rating, 2nd Class, RCN 'W' Commando.

I would be careful with that reenactor website as it is laced with misinformation and collector slang, plus the two illustrated BDs are both post-WWII rebadged examples. Websites are like books, you need to draw from several sources to get a more complete picture rather from just one unattributed source.