WW II Canadian Helmets

servicepub wrote:Here are five different RCA units. Different units but consistent use of the approved flash.

with respect I have to say that the first flash (175) looks different, wider and an extra bar? what do you make of this helmet I posted Clive the Super Heavy?

Thanks Dale and Clive, I agree. I don't think the RCAF decals are WW2 vintage. Most likely the returning vets got these and slapped them on a few helmets. The rest are just floating around until some fool decides to apply them to boost a lid value.

...

Here's the feedback from the first buyer.
High shipping$. Tried to sell items off eBay. Tried to increase shipping $.

Hi Clive, the WAF member who owned the RCAF decal helmet pictured in this topic, today told me he never did get any clear answers on if period applied or not. He thought that they might be WW2 but Home Front.

Thks
Kelly

how about this one

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=668250

from Normandy

The helmet in question;



My response;

Although not an expert in painted helmets I will add this to the discussion. The use of coloured flashes served two purposes; one was to help instill an esprit de Corps in the unit, and the other was to provide identification.

To use colours that differed from those approved would not accomplish either goal.

Certainly, no regiment would allow colour substitutes after having made an informed decision on the proper colours. This the Chaudieres did and it is documented thanks to Mike's research.

Clive
http://www.servicepub.com/helmetflashes.htm

servicepub wrote:Looks like I will play the bad guy again. I refuse to accept any helmet with an RCAF, RCA or RCCS decal consisting of the WWII cap badge. I base this on no specific information but on observation. I have somewhere between 20,000 and 25,000 images in my collection and have not once seen any of these decals in wear. In addition, I and Roger Lucy have looked at almost every known archival file on Canadian Army helmets. The insignia (helmet flash and shoulder titles) to be used by the RCA is one of the few that actually rated an official chart, with measurements, and was produced in colour. The portion dealing with helmet flashes is shown on my website at http://www.servicepub.com/helmetflashes.htm . The image for the RCA is

I do remember having many of these three decals in my possession back in the late 1960s and was informed then that they were sold through Maple Leaf Enterprises, the forerunner to today's Canex, presumably for personal use.

Clive

Here is an update on the RCAF decal that was sent to me.

"They told me that it was used on helmets between 1948 and 1953 for ground maneuvers (King George Crown). It is authentic to that time period (late 40s to early 50s) and one of the RCAF veterans at the Museum said he had one exactly like it during that time. Therefore, the logo is real and legitimate, but not to World War Two, just shortly afterwards".

Anecdotal confirmations are good, it is always nice when someone can confirm a piece of equipment or markings or whatever and they are good snippets to add to your toolbox of data, but you have to remember that primary source documentary proof is the best evidence that you want to prove or disprove your discussion point. Notice how Clive provided an example from a document with his post, this is the type of information you want to have to refer to.

From your previous statement, I have some questions, the first being who is the ‘they’? What where these ‘ground maneuves’ between 1948 and 1953? Which museum are we talking about?

Something that you also have to remember is that just because someone was in the military and works or volunteers at a museum, does not mean that they know what they are talking about when it comes to things military. Enjoy the interaction with these people, enjoy the stories but you have to remember that stories can change over time which is why you want to find the primary source data.

Hi Ed, yes I agree. It would have been worse if the old Veteran of that era tried to claim it as WW2 which we know isn't true.

The they and the museum are old Vets from RCAF Museum at CFB TRenton. Ground maneuvers by what unit etc was not mentioned. I can PM you with the email sender if you want as it was a private email.

I was interested in a Canadian lid with a WW2 decal, so I put many feelers out there at this forum and others regarding those 2 RCAF on ebay. This was a reply to one of those emails.

Thanks
KElly

Hi, The helmet you show has the tac sign for either 4 AT Regt RCA, 5 Canadian Armoured Division or 5 AT Regt RCA 4 Canadian ARmoured Division. How did you determine it was 4 AT? What is the medium used to inscribe the soldier's name? It appears to be marker in the image?

Hi Bill , tu trouveras ici
http://home.cogeco.ca/~gdavidson1/5Div.html

pour le nom du soldat , je ne sais pas si il est bon ???

Hi Gate, The tac sign, 77 is the same for the AT regiment in the 4th and 5th Armd Div. The material used to inscribe the soldier's name appears to be marker. It was not available until long after the Second World War.

Hello Bill, thank you,
  the name of the soldier I suspected well he is not good.
But I not bought the helmet for the name but well for the helmet.

I really like this Despatch rider helmet i bought some time ago.
It really has the been there look and reparations.

A few more that I found during the summer...a British Royal Artillery, and a Canadian mystery helmet.

This old Brit had a second life as an Royal Engineer helmet. The ghost and remnants of the decal remain. Shell mfr. unreadable. Complete with BMB liner.





Not sure what this one is. The painted square is a mystery. Shell is a CL/C. Complete with VMC liner.

Could be gas paint in my opinion.
I have seen that before.

Remember, the Mk II helmets remained in use in the Canadian army well into the 60's, maybe even the early 70's depending on the reserve unit. A lot of helmets had markings added after the war, for training purposes. Just because the shell is dated to the Second World War doesn't mean the markings on the shell are the same age.

have seen a very interesting Canadian Scottish helmet in the week, have to ask the owner if I can post a photo and also just referencing Bills post, I saw this helmet for sale

http://prospectofwhitbyantiques.com/index.php/antiques/detail/canadian-regimental-flashed-artillery-helmet


"This Reserve Force regiment originated in St. Catharines, Ontario on 1 April 1946 when the '44th Field Regiment, RCA' was authorized to be formed.1 It was redesignated the '44th Field Artillery Regiment, RCA' on 12 April 1960.2 It was reduced to nil strength and transferred to the Supplementary Order of Battle on 31 January 1965.3" quote http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/

have to not let my enthusiasm for these get the better of me,

not quite a decal, but have seen this type of name or such scratched onto the front of helmets in period photo's, whats nice from a research point of view is the canadian serial no. also a first for me is a british made shell with (what I believe original applied) Canadian made chinstrap, I added a canadian liner myself

Hi John.

I had a british MKII helmet with "M.O.T.H.E.R" scratched on the front of the helmet.
service number inside, wich belong to an Esat Lancashire Regiment soldier.

I make an exchange many years ago, and i don't keep pictures of it.

Seb

Interesting to hear Seb, I could swear I saw a period photo online, whilst looking for something else, of a helmet with MOO on the front group shot), but of course can't find it now

a new canadian engineers helmet for me, this was found at a flea market in Normandy and has extra hooks on the side for wire/string for foliage,