Ebay CEF Patches

I was wondering whether anyone has an opinion on the lot of CEF Formation patches listed on eBay lately. Vendor states they all came off a blanket which I am sure is true. I have been after these things for 40 years and have never seen so many with the same backing on the reverse? it also seems many of the two piece patches have the white portion glued to them? I have seen original railway troops patches and they are oversized and have a open middle not a white square superimposed on red? I have also seen original trench mortar patches and they have a qualification patch superimposed on the div patch, not a small blue grenade? Any other thoughts? As always, I am eager to learn.

Ypres


https://www.ebay.ca/itm/RARE-ORIGINAL-WW1-RAILWAY-TROOPS-PATCH-EXC/222912660115?hash=item33e6a14293:g:-G8AAOSwTPRaxqHz

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/RARE-ORIGINAL-WW1-CANADIAN-PATCH-FOR-THE-1ST-AUX-H-T-COMPANY-EXC/222912942150?hash=item33e6a59046:g:1MIAAOSwWUlaxwNd

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/RARE-ORIGINAL-CANADIAN-WW1-1ST-DIVISION-TROOPS-PATCH-EXC/222914105894?hash=item33e6b75226:g:E00AAOSwQapayEr2

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/RARE-ORIGINAL-CANADIAN-WW1-2nd-COMPANY-TUNNELING-TROOPS-PATCH-EXC/222914104122?hash=item33e6b74b3a:g:yXQAAOSw7jtayEm7

Hi Rick, of interest, this is the THIRD round of CEF patches coming out of the same place in Arizona, but being sold by at least two different names. Some thoughts. In 1917 and 1918, the Historical Section of the Canadian army overseas petitioned all Canadian Corps units for descriptions and examples of their patches. The returns were incomplete, and well into the 1920's the Historical Section was still trying to get descriptions and examples. Yet, these ladies had access to every patch, both early and late in some cases, and were able to sew them on three blankets. I too have been accumulating CEF patches for over 30 years, and I have a small accumulation. The ones I have acquired are notable for the different materials and the inconsistent sizes and variations in fabric colours. The patches coming out of Arizona are amazing in the consistency of fabric type, and colours. Likewise, some of the patches on offer are different sizes and styles than patches that have been authenticated.
I have had some of the Arizona patches in hand and they feel and smell old. Some have a really odd rubbery backing material. They pass the burn and uv tests.
The method of issuing patches during the First WW needs to be considered. After they were authorized in 1916, the Canadian Corps had many of the patches locally procured or allowed the Battalions to purchase material and indent for reimbursement. The patches were not ordnance issued until late in the war. And that was in the UK / France and Flanders. How the ladies would acquire these in Canada to sew on the blankets is an interesting question.
After examining these, it is not possible to conclusively say they are fraudulent, but neither is it possible to conclude they are authentic. Caveat emptor.

They're back!!!

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/WWI-Fort-Garry-Horse-shoulder-patch-Pair/113259707954?hash=item1a5ecdfe32:g:ygAAAOSwX8FbovcX

Why do these all look the same … down to the cat hair and staining!

Ypres

just tuned in with 8 mins to go

I hope the buyer is happy with their purchase.

Ypres

Pretty significant chunk of cash.

I have purchased cap badges from the seller before and was happy with my purchase.

Mike

Mike,

I'm sure the seller is 100% honest and reputable. The post was never about the honesty or dishonesty of sellers. It was about the authenticity of the patches discussed. I've been in many shops and stalls over the years and have seen many repros on the shelves of sellers I implicitly trust. Although I try to purchase "good" items, I'm sure I have some repros in my collection as well. The owner of a shop can't be an expert in everything. That's why I deal with sellers who offer a 100% lifetime refund. It doesn't mean that items I find questionable are not good. At the end of the day, the buyer needs to make a determination, hopefully not based on the seller's opinion but based on their own knowledge. Personally I only try to buy items I am 100% sure on and are identical to verified examples. I'm not saying there are not theatre made or one offs. I just stay away from them. Really this is all immaterial until we try to resell what we own. It's always difficult to admit making a mistake when no one wants to purchase that rare First Can Para BD.... It looked good when I bought it and I was told it was obtained from the vet who owned it? A story is just a story.

Ypres

It looks like they are back!

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/WWI-formation-patches/113649911458?hash=item1a761006a2:g:vqgAAOSwuDFcahyr

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/WWI-TRENCH-MORTAR-flaming-grenades-formation-patches/113649907958?hash=item1a760ff8f6:g:a8wAAOSw3Cdcahu7

The trench mortar patches are intriguing. Is there any evidence that these types of cut out patches even existed? Would it not make more sense that the trench mortar skills at arms was sewn on the formation patch? The book, "Military Antiques and Collectibles of the Great War" apparently has original examples from a source complied shortly after the war which shows the skill at arms patch sewn over the formation patch.

The Nicholson book has drawings in it that people take as gospel. Forgers use this page to create patches. A great example is the "Railway Troops" formation patch. In the book it looks like the patch is a red square with a white square in the centre. The uniform I have in my collection has a patch that is a red square with a "cut out centre" which means you can see the uniform cloth in the middle! This was confirmed by a helmet I observed at a show that had this formation patch painted to both sides. It did not have white squares painted on it. I have seen uniforms, that I believe have been made up, with a red and white patch worn on both arms.

As always, this is just my personal opinion. Any information regarding this would be greatly welcomed.

Ypres

https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/insignia/brookerguide.htm?fbclid=IwAR3YjSjb4qTnaV0l-P8pYUgecH7K0jvrr3sfLZUiAW09xXSFM2NyAwmAtzo

Chris Booker and his book seem to like them. They are all featured prominently in his book.

I did notice some of the patches in the book as well. I also noticed this fine print at the bottom of his pages.

Hosted at canadiansoldiers.com - please send feedback, corrections and other updates to the author, Chris Brooker, at cgbrooker@aol.com

Not sure that will change much.

I think the fact that the "patches", appear in the book, speaks to the rarity of the patches themselves not that they are all original. I have been looking for these patches for 40 years and have managed to find a handful of original ones over that period. Personally, I feel the blanket in question was produced years after the armistice. I believe the patches were produced for the blanket, not collected for it. The fact they all look the same and they have nearly identical backings is a problem for me. The ones I have, are similar but not identical. A Legion book came out around the time of the Vimy Pilgrimage and it has a foldout sheet showing the patches; it is much like the one in the Nicholson book. I believe the blanket was created at that time. It's just my opinion. In the end, a collector needs to make up their own mind when these come up for sale. In any case, the discussion has ended now that those patches have appeared in the book, I guess they are original ….

All the best,

Ypres

Going to be more blunt Rick. The stuff is bogus, made up to deceive and has been successfully flogged to a large number of collectors, most of whom are advanced, and have now given these a cachet of authenticity. The story was originally of one blanket, which became two, and then three. The patches on these were from some of the most obscure and small units of the CEF, but yet there were multiples of each. CSEF, North Russia, and corps troops. I had email exchanges with the vendor, and he couldn't keep his story straight. It changed repeatedly.
In my opinion, I think he has perpetrated one of the great insignia scams of the Canadian collecting world.

Bill,

Three full blankets??  Three blankets full of WWI unissued patches??? Assuming it was put together in 1919, where would the original seamstress or tailor have found all the patches ? It would take years to write letters requesting patches from vets from all those CEF units ? Where would the addresses have been obtained ? Doing it would have been a full time job!! Just doesn't add up to me!

Your last comment sums it up. It doesn't (and didn't) add up.

Looks like they have returned again .....


https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Ultra-Rare-Orig-Shoulder-Flashes-RNWMP-Siberian-Expeditionary-Force-B-Squadron/353181464257?hash=item523b4176c1%3Ag%3AMCkAAOSwTMlfRTM6&fbclid=IwAR1L8L47KlvTR2qJgyy2Xg48q2oYfwBNb85EI0t5tyM7biGAOK9jqdMkKVI

Yes. Different vendor this time. These "Arizona" patches are really dangerous and now have an aura of authenticity.

I like the "Arizona" label. The listing shows how they are passing through the collector dealer cycle for the second time. Every time this happens, they gain a greater cachet. Depending on the collectors who owned them and the dealers selling them, they gain another layer of provenance. Unless the "word" gets out, these will just become more expensive making the tuition at "Militaria University" higher. The unwary collector will want to regain their loss so these patches will be constantly passed off as original.

Five days left and already $555 US ..... $730 CAD ouch. At this point, there are also 11 separate bidders. This speaks to the demand for these type of items. The question becomes, what supply will arrive to meet the demand? Bill, any books left?

Ypres

Unfortunately, Arizona patches are here to stay. Certain "big time" vendors have pronounced authenticity, and their stature and the fact that advanced collectors have bought in (in more ways than financial) have made them nearly impossible to remove from the market and collections. That set of RNWMP patches went from Arizona to a big time vendor in Vancouver area, and now have migrated over to Victoria.
Yes, I still have books. (the suspension of shows has slowed sales quite a bit; everything is by mail now.)

Another set ?????? Wow these CSEF RNWMP patches are really common??

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/RNWMP-B-Squadron-Canadian-Siberian-Expeditionary-Force-Shoulder-Patches/143737249447?hash=item2177685ea7:g:j7kAAOSwIAxfX8Qz

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/North-Russian-Expeditionary-Force-Shoulder-Patches-World-War-1/143737259740?hash=item21776886dc:g:C2YAAOSwkt9fX8eh

The last set sold for $2200 Canadian .... Wow .... seems like overpaying for something like that.

I would not want either the ones sold last week, or these in my collection. Nor the North Russia patches.
Quite interesting that the patches have the same material, similar construction, and most interesting, the SAME backing material. Yet, the RNWMP CSEF were organized and equipped in Canada, and the North Russia in the UK/France and Flanders. Given the ad hoc nature of patch acquisition during the First World War, it is amazing that two makers would use the same techniques, or that one maker was contracted to make the patches for two units, thousands of miles apart from each other.

The problem with pieces this rare, is the collector wants them to be original so they enter the transaction with an unconscious bias that only needs a small push for them to take the bait and buy the item. My advice to a new buyer is to go in with a conscious bias that the item is fake and prove them original, then buy.

It's like watching a person walk into traffic and get hit by a car. You try to warn them, but they won't hear you.

The "Arizona" patches have returned ... this time the odd backing has been removed .... their construction and the thick yellow threads are unmistakeable.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CEF-3rd-Trench-Mortar-Battery-Shoulder-Patches/143987254597?hash=item21864f2545:g:lz4AAOSwGa9gW1JM

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CEF-20th-Battalion-Shoulder-Patches/143987258140?hash=item21864f331c:g:8p4AAOSwy6NgW1OY

Unusual to have two sets of CEF patches that just have the "feel" of being made by the same person??? Same yellow thread?

It is extremely interesting and highly unlikely that soldiers in different battalions (and in some cases divisions) used the exact same thread to stitch the patches on their uniforms.